The design of the framework entities is that they are data only, causing issues in maintainability and making it difficult or impossible to implement business objects or more “real-world” objects. Keith > Wrong, you use partial classes to extend the generated aspects of the entities. This is explicitly encouraged and we use it a lot for core business rules and validation The design of the framework entities is that they cannot be persistence ignorant, so things like unit testing become next to impossible because you cannot test the model without the database (for instance). KP > You can use the repository pattern around the EF and avoid using the object context directly. You are then only dependent on EntityObject, EntityReference and EntityCollection. i fyou are sensible about it and don't work on object context, your refactoring when vnext comes along will be significantly reduced. Lazy loading is not supported at all and requires a lot of extra code to make work. This confuses me. I thought I saw "lazy-loading" demoed internally but I might be mistaken. KP > By design, but pretty easy to wire it up, not really a "lot of extra code". I worked with NH too, and the time saved using the designer with EF more than makes up for it:) Shared, canonical models contradict software best practices. This appears to be related to using a single shared model for multiple contexts in the EF, rather than multiple models, one for each individual context. KP > Well, it may be a criticism of the vision of EF, but not of its core ORM functionality. Our clients are interested in the reporting aspects on their domains without excessive code. Excessive merge conflicts with source control. Apparently, since the diagram contains the model and the visualization, it causes tons of merge conflicts when a team is using it. KP > A fair point, but we've settled on having a 'domain master', not a biggy for a smallish team, but perhaps larger would have problems..

I've posted to my blog in defence of the EF, as someone who is actually using it, intead of criticising from an ivory tower!! http://blog.keithpatton.com/2008/06/24/A+Vote+Of+Confidence+For+The+Entity+Framework.aspx

The Entity Framework Team has started work on Version 2 and invites people to take part in the design process/give feedback http://blogs.msdn.com/efdesign/archive/2008/06/23/transparency-in-the-design-process.aspx#comments

Keith: I think my co-worker Tim (linked above) agreed with you about partial classes. I'm not sure what the alt.net guys are talking about. The rest of the items seem to be best practice issues that can be worked around. I think the alt.net guys goal is to for them to be best practice out-of-box next time around and not have to work around them. Tom: Thanks for the feedback and link about the new version.

Hi, The alt.net crew should really have known and heard the v2 commitments around process and deliverables (POCO a la NH) and so i can see little for them to gain by the letter except notoriety. I think the best thing they can so is rally around Ayende in beefing up NH support for linq and maybe writing a decent designer tool for NH!

Actually built a validation framework that, except for changed property, fully works from the object context rather than the entities, so the entities do not have to be aware of validation rules (PropertyChanged seems to be a funny exception, but from a performance standpoint you already need to be careful what you validate on PropertyChanged). So you can enforce rules without using partial classes.